Confusion over the name of Newbury's second-oldest pub is to be resolved.
A major facelift is underway at Northbrook Street pub The Monument, and pub owner Enterprise Inns is removing all references to the Tap & Spile.
The Tap & Spile nom de plume first emerged in the early 1990s, when pub brands like the Rat & Parrot and Slug & Lettuce were all the rage.
Many young people know the 17th century protected inn as 'the Tap', while older locals tend to refer to it as the Monny or Monument.
The new owners are hoping to retain the existing clientele, but to create a more tasteful and appealing frontage. However, West Berkshire Council says no decision has yet been made, even though scaffolding has gone up around the pub this week.
They've also knocked about, refurbished much of the inside. I'm assuming there must be permission from the Secretary of State or someone to do this... Threep.
Don't need it any more, there's a war on don't you know!
Well, the work is complete. At least the sign is better than the one for which they sought planning permission (at least it depicts The Monument).
And planning? According to the online planning data WBC have not yet decided whether to approve the works.
Where were you WBC?
And now the government are planning to put local authorities in charge of ancient monuments and listed buildings - obviously so they can demolish and build over even more of our history.
I can't see how anybody could object to that facade. Very tasteful.
Old Bill anticipating a horde of angry planners ????
Oh, by the way, don't push it with the A board
I did prefer the previous colour scheme and smaller sign, and much prefered the old inn sign - but it is not an objectionable facade and it probably meets all the requirements of a listed building in a conservation area. What concerns me is that they have gone ahead with the work without waiting for planning permission. In my opinion they should prosecuted for flouting the planning laws.
The monument dispayed on the swinging sign is not a local monument so is it the one raised in London to mark the 'Great Fire of London'. ?
I'm not sure if they've flouted planning rules inside but the exterior design and the signs have been similar on three face lifts. I see that they have retained the old Hall's of Oxford tiles alongside the entrance. That should please the Anchor tile brigade.
Lunchtime today, upon seeing a double sink unit, huge cooker hood, the manager and a piano standing on the pavement.......(and pretty much verbaitum)
" Hi Neil.....moving out then?"
" No, knocking two walls down to fit me new kitchen in.."
"ah..that explains the old sinks 'n' stuff then.."
"lot of it no good, chef always griping"
"your permission come through then?"
"eh?"
"from the council..all that building regs good stuff...you know, permission to remove interior walls..same as with the sign......came through at last did it?"
"f*** you and f*** them..."
Nice.
Come on WBC....you have a duty of care here...it's being irrevocably changed inside, and changed without permission outside. Why not sit back and do nothing? oh yeah, you're already doing that, which would mean only one of two things....WBC are either incompetent (and unable to look after our heritage properly) or someone somewhere has been bribed by Enterprise Inns. Which is it?
If it, or any part of it, is listed, the following must apply.....(from WBC's own site)
Listed Buildings
Listed buildings are those structures included in the List of Buildings of Special Architectural or Historic Interest.
The majority of works to listed buildings (including internal alterations) require Listed Building Consent, and may also require planning permission.
The specialist nature of listed buildings is such that we would advise that you employ an architect to prepare drawings for you, and that they supervise the works on site if permission is granted.
Further information regarding Listed Buildings can be obtained from English Heritage, from Planning Policy Guidance Note 15 or from the Council's Conservation Officer.
PLEASE BE AWARE THAT CARRYING OUT WORKS TO A LISTED BUILDING WITHOUT OBTAINING LISTED BUILDING CONSENT IS A CRIMINAL ACT.
WBC don't have a leg to stand on. It's no good them throwing their weight around on listed buildings when they've been urging the demolition of 20 of our older buildings in Park Way. Maybe they've given up due to the sheer hypocrisy!
The one thing in their favour is that even if this is a listed building, it now looks the part as opposed to the buildings on the opposite side of the road and up a bit which have had the arse ripped out of them for the good of the town.
Apart from the retrospective application for the external repaint and signs which seem to have everybodies approval. What seems to be the problem, are there major internal changes which have been carried out
According to the manager, two internal walls have already been removed. (I'm assuming the're not load-bearing.....or at least I hope they aint.)
The point is, (whether we agree with the changes or not), WBC have no such luxury. They have been given the legal responsibilty to see that these measures are correctly carried out and don't destroy the character etc of the property. No decision seems to have been taken by WBC so far, so why are the works going ahead?
We may all think "oh it don't look too bad"....but "oh, it don't look too bad" is not a legal reason to allow listed buildings to be knocked around. Is it?
WBC don't have a leg to stand on. It's no good them throwing their weight around on listed buildings when they've been urging the demolition of 20 of our older buildings in Park Way. Maybe they've given up due to the sheer hypocrisy!
Some of the buildings demolished were listed buildings (far too many in my opinion) but the issue is one of gaining the correct permissions BEFORE carrying out the work. The Parkway demolition of 6 or 7 listed buildings may be appalling, but it was done by the book.
The wall that divided the kitchen from the main passage-way has gone. (Vanished, Disappeared, Ceased to be) I went there today and Neil showed me where it used to be.
Tell WBC that Specsavers are having a 2 for 1 sale...
Threep.
Oh, and they've also nailed a black 'ash-tray' onto the frontage....or did WBC miss that as well?
The wall that divided the kitchen from the main passage-way has gone. (Vanished, Disappeared, Ceased to be) I went there today and Neil showed me where it used to be.
Tell WBC that Specsavers are having a 2 for 1 sale...
Threep.
Oh, and they've also nailed a black 'ash-tray' onto the frontage....or did WBC miss that as well?
The wall could have been added since the building was listed. So, the inspector would be correct that no listed parts of the building had been altered.
The wall could have been added since the building was listed. So, the inspector would be correct that no listed parts of the building had been altered.
The wall could have been added since the building was listed. So, the inspector would be correct that no listed parts of the building had been altered.
All walls within a listed building are part of the listed building and hence require listed buildings approval before they can be demolished. Similarly any addition of new walls needs to be approved.
Obviously a wall could have been added and then removed since the building was listed - both times without approval (ie illegally) and hence an inspection would not show a problem. Alternatively - the person inspecting a listed building may have no plans, no real idea of what was there apart from a paragraph or two in the listed building description.
Many buildings have been listed without any internal inspection and, I suspect, there are very, very few internal plans in the hands of Englsih Heritage or WBC. Nor can they collect such plans if the owners avoid the legal requirement to seek approval for changes ...
It has been suggested that all listed buildings should be surveyed to record what is actually in them - but owners may not be too happy with the idea. Meanwhile it is fairly easy for someone to claim that a listing is over-egging the merits of a building and that it really isn't that important - such as happened during the Parkway planning. In reality no one really knows how important many of the Grade II listed buildings are and the protection afforded by the listed status is not worth a lot.
What's really shameful here, isn't the fact the the 'chuckle brothers' turned up, and told Neil (the manager) it looked better inside, not that they were just shown a door that had been removed and the space used for shelving, not that they enjoyed Neils hospitality while they were there, nor that they walked around the 'A' board to get in, or that they missed the big 'ashtray' now bolted to the outside wall..
No, what's really shameful here is the fact that WBCs finest told Neil (and reps from Enterprise Inns) that they were there after complaints on the internet. and Newbury.net was mentioned by name.
In other words, WBC had no idea what was going on, the extent of any damage being caused, and they were happy to do nothing about it. If it hadn't been for this forum. Wether they like it or not, these people have a duty of care over our heritage. This forum got a couple of them off their arses and out actually doing something. They may have missed a bit, but hey, practice makes perfect...
with regards to the pub i wish people would get there facts rite before writing. spell my name rite would be a start ! and with regards to the wall it is still there and if you had been in the pub over the last 6 months you would know that the wall from the old kitchen is still there. as a company we have tried to keep this old pub as original as possible no major changes have taken place. NEAL
with regards to the pub i wish people would get there facts rite before writing. spell my name rite would be a start ! and with regards to the wall it is still there and if you had been in the pub over the last 6 months you would know that the wall from the old kitchen is still there. as a company we have tried to keep this old pub as original as possible no major changes have taken place. NEAL
I'm afraid this is an issue you can never change Neal. Everyone believes they know the facts and when someone, who does know the facts, puts them right they don't believe you and carry on thinking they are right. You can never win!
with regards to the pub i wish people would get there facts rite before writing. spell my name rite would be a start ! and with regards to the wall it is still there and if you had been in the pub over the last 6 months you would know that the wall from the old kitchen is still there. as a company we have tried to keep this old pub as original as possible no major changes have taken place. NEAL
The interior changes are beyond my ken (though Threep seemed convinced ..), however, it is a fact that works were carried on to the outside of the pub before the necessary planning consents had been granted. Why?
I don't really blame the owners, I'd probably do it myself given the same circumstances. Its the system that allows retrospective planning applications that should be abolished.
I'm afraid this is an issue you can never change Neal. Everyone believes they know the facts and when someone, who does know the facts, puts them right they don't believe you and carry on thinking they are right. You can never win!
To be fair to Threep, he was only quoting what the manager had allegedly said at the time.
You seem to have changed your story between talking to my colleagues and I outside on the pavement (over 6 months ago) and now. What's happened? The Irish contingent got to you? Or were you also fibbing about your backers being Irish?
Why should I believe anything you say now or in the future.
well to be fair to threep if he had even come into the premisses and spoke to me THE MANAGER he would have all the facts before writing on here.
Like most chat forums, this place is always heavy on the opinion, light on the facts.
The recent thread about Victoria Park has shown this with a few vocal out-of-towners up in arms over plans they haven't seen yet for a park they never use.
I wouldn't worry, it's not like anyone takes what's posted on here seriously. I include what I post in this statement of course.
The recent thread about Victoria Park has shown this with lots of out-of-towners up in arms over plans they haven't seen yet for a park they never use.
A lot of people who care about the development of a park, compared to townies, who seem only to care for there to be more and more things built on green spaces.
I wouldn't worry, it's not like anyone takes what's posted on here seriously. I include what I post in this statement.
Exactly, so why get so wound-up about what are only opinions, misguided or not. Not that there has been any evidence that you are expressing opinions that themselves are not prejudiced.
The recent thread about Victoria Park has shown this with a few vocal out-of-towners up in arms over plans they haven't seen yet for a park they never use.
Then I saw it - you were referring to your own posts.
the facts speak for themselves and there have been no walls removed from the interior of the pub so how i could of shown any1 where the wall used to be is beyond me as the walls are still there. like you say in your previouse msgs specsavers do have some wonderfull offers on lol
the facts speak for themselves and there have been no walls removed from the interior of the pub so how i could of shown any1 where the wall used to be is beyond me as the walls are still there. like you say in your previouse msgs specsavers do have some wonderfull offers on lol
Not by a long chalk... Lunchtime today, upon seeing a double sink unit, huge cooker hood, the manager and a piano standing on the pavement.......(and pretty much verbaitum)
" Hi Neil.....moving out then?" " No, knocking two walls down to fit me new kitchen in.." "ah..that explains the old sinks 'n' stuff then.." "lot of it no good, chef always griping" "your permission come through then?" "eh?" "from the council..all that building regs good stuff...you know, permission to remove interior walls..same as with the sign......came through at last did it?" "f*** you and f*** them..."
Nice...
Come on WBC....you have a duty of care here...it's being irrevocably changed inside, and changed without permission outside. Why not sit back and do nothing? oh yeah, you're already doing that, which would mean only one of two things....WBC are either incompetent (and unable to look after our heritage properly) or someone somewhere has been bribed by Enterprise Inns. Which is it? Threep.
Quoted from Threepwood @ June 26, 2009, 8:13pm
The wall that divided the kitchen from the main passage-way has gone. (Vanished, Disappeared, Ceased to be) I went there today and Neil showed me where it used to be. Tell WBC that Specsavers are having a 2 for 1 sale... Threep. Oh, and they've also nailed a black 'ash-tray' onto the frontage....or did WBC miss that as well?
Perhaps Neal cacked himself and put the wall back, or lost his bottle and didn't take the wall down... or Threep made it all up!
well we can all debate this for a long time but if we all took time to look at the building and the facts it would save every1 spreading rumours. facts the wall is still there !!!!!!!! no internal changes have been made apart from a lick of paint and i good clean up "!!!!!!!!
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