Plans to cordon off a large section of the Market Place for a new open air bar will be put to the test at a council planning meeting tomorrow.

Snooty Fox landlord Matt Castle is asking for permission to rope off a 30 sq ft section of the former car park, and put up a 12 foot tall canopy to cover half the space.

Town planners have over-ridden a string of objections from Newbury Town Council, and West Berkshire Council’s own conservation officer and are recommending that councillors back the plans.

As with all other open-air outlets, plastic cutlery will be the order of the day, unless you are eating a steak, when you can have a steak knife. And bottles are banned in favour of polycarbonate glasses. Council officials also demand that every item of furniture is individually approved before granting permission.

Mr Castle is planning to use staff from the Snooty Fox in Barthlomew Street to serve food and drinks via the Arcade, before crossing the bus and taxi route.

The Berkshire Tavern and Document House have struggled to get more modest  open-air plans past planners, and Mr Castle had to wait 5 months to get the materials approved.

The Market Place has been a huge source of embarrassment for West Berkshire Council since it ordered a £830,000 revamp. The taxi rank was moved outside Barclays before police complained that it was confusing for through traffic, so the council moved it back.

Rising bollards in Wharf Street have sparked outrage after impaling 25 vehicles, costing nearly as much to repair as they did to install. Kebab van operators have complained of loss of income since they were banished to the Wharf, and the number of people visiting the Market Place was down 20% compared to before and after the revamp.

After the project was curtailed in late 2007 – the resurfacing was supposed to stretch to the Post Office entrance – the Christmas lights switch-on that year was heavily criticised for lack of public safety. Meanwhile, the Dogs Trust has been campaigning for kerbs to be reinstated after complaints from blind shoppers, and in the last few weeks, major cracks have appeared to the new surface.

Quoted from Administrator

Meanwhile, the Dogs Trust has been campaigning for kerbs to be reinstated after complaints from blind shoppers, and in the last few weeks, major cracks have appeared to the new surface.

The Dogs Trust???? Got our mutt from them.

Can't say as this sounds that wonderful - canopy (permanent I assume), plastic cutlery and 'glasses'. Space heaters as well?  At least the place may be a little less deserted. Will it be there on market days?

Why don't they let the kebab van back in the evening!

Quoted from Administrator

and put up a 12 foot tall canopy to cover half the space.

How will that be held in place then?


Threep.

So the council spent £1.25m so that some pub landlord can have somewhere for his drunks to smoke in a town centre in which public consumption of alcohol was formerly banned? You couldn't make it up.

Don't you like the Market Place Admin? I think it looks nice.

Quoted from 78

Don't you like the Market Place Admin? I think it looks nice.

I think the Sahara Desert looks nice but I don't think it fits in Newbury town centre.
The problem is that the Market Place is now used simply as a transit route when the market isn't using it and is now an unused wasteland. It really is a shame that it doesn't have a reason for use anymore. At least as it was when parking was allowed it had activity and a purpose. Maybe with the new applications it might be better.

Yes, West Berkshire Council spent around £1,000,000.00 of tax payers money on a new road surface.  I thought the area looked fine immediately prior to the resurfacing.

Quoted from Greenham Common

Yes, West Berkshire Council spent around £1,000,000.00 of tax payers money on a new road surface.  I thought the area looked fine immediately prior to the resurfacing.

Yay! This again. I so missed people moaning about the Market Place. After this it must be time for a whinge about the bollards again, surely?

Quoted from massifheed

Yay! This again. I so missed people moaning about the Market Place. After this it must be time for a whinge about the bollards again, surely?

Won't be long.

Quoted from Greenham Common

Won't be long.

Great stuff, the miserable trying to make everyone else so.

Quoted from 26

So the council spent £1.25m so that some pub landlord can have somewhere for his drunks to smoke in a town centre in which public consumption of alcohol was formerly banned? You couldn't make it up.

I think this is a test case to make it easier for other venues to use the market place for the purpose the council pushed it through on - continental dining - they seem to have changed their minds a little.  

Are you saying all drunks are smokers, or all smokers drunks?  Does this mean as a tee total, non smoker I cant get a steak?

Quoted from user23.3

Great stuff, the miserable trying to make everyone else so.

Way of the world - especially socialists.

Quoted from Bartholomew

I think the Sahara Desert looks nice but I don't think it fits in Newbury town centre.
The problem is that the Market Place is now used simply as a transit route when the market isn't using it and is now an unused wasteland. It really is a shame that it doesn't have a reason for use anymore. At least as it was when parking was allowed it had activity and a purpose. Maybe with the new applications it might be better.

It does have a use. I 'm glad the cars have gone.

Quoted from 78

It does have a use. I 'm glad the cars have gone.

Sadly yet to be realised and a snip at, "£1,000,000.00".

Quoted from 78

It does have a use. I 'm glad the cars have gone.

Care to share with us what use it has? Apart from the market and occasional event it is deserted.

Quoted from Bartholomew

Care to share with us what use it has?

I think the clue is in the name, the Market Place.

Quoted from user23.3

I think the clue is in the name, the Market Place.

But we've always had these!

Quoted from Greenham Common

But we've always had these!

We haven't always had Farmers Markets, French Markets, Italian Markets, Christmas Markets...

I was just responding to the question though, that's it's main use.

Personally I think holding the markets in a lovely piazza rather than a car park is much better.

Quoted from user23.3

Personally I think holding the markets in a lovely piazza rather than a car park is much better.

While taxis and the rest have access, then the market place will always be compromised.  The market place as it was immediately prior to the resurfacing was fine and the mixed use meant that more use was made of the the area.  There was no need, in my view, to spend such a large amount of money on the resurfacing of the Market Place.  The alternative markets could still have been installed regardless of the floor surface.

The idea of the Market Place having regular use, and encouraging more footfall in the area is a good idea.

However, the idea of a bar, leaves me cold! By definition, this will discourage a large element of the general public to visit the area, and possibly encourage the wrong clientele.

Of course, there are other factors to consider also;
a) where will the market go?
b) how will this affect the clientele of Market Place pubs and eateries? will we see more closures?
c) if food and drink (non-alcoholic) is served, how will this affect current market traders offering the same?
d) to serve food and drink from a pub the other end of the Arcade cannot be viable. Imagine your food being carried passed general public down the Arcade, maybe bumping into some, or others may sneeze or cough as it passes - ugh!!
e) what are intended opening hours - if pub hours well into the night, is it likely to promote bad behaviour from the more undesirables?

Continental style eating outside is a good idea, for those bordering the Market Place, the only downfall is the english weather - how much of the time will this be actually usable.

The area has no useful purpose at present, other than a much deminished Thurs and Sat market, but I hope any further use is fully considered, and local views and businesses taken into full consideration before acting upon. There is no point in just transferring trade from one provider to another, with the obvious result - closures!

Quoted from Bartholomew

Care to share with us what use it has? Apart from the market and occasional event it is deserted.

Those are the uses. It looks far better there now, empty , than it did full of parked cars.

Quoted from user23.3

We haven't always had Farmers Markets, French Markets, Italian Markets, Christmas Markets...

I was just responding to the question though, that's it's main use.

Personally I think holding the markets in a lovely piazza rather than a car park is much better.

That is two of us then.

I see that the application was turned down.

Quoted from LocalRes

Of course, there are other factors to consider also;
a) where will the market go?
b) how will this affect the clientele of Market Place pubs and eateries? will we see more closures?
c) if food and drink (non-alcoholic) is served, how will this affect current market traders offering the same?
d) to serve food and drink from a pub the other end of the Arcade cannot be viable. Imagine your food being carried passed general public down the Arcade, maybe bumping into some, or others may sneeze or cough as it passes - ugh!!
e) what are intended opening hours - if pub hours well into the night, is it likely to promote bad behaviour from the more undesirables?

a) There has been no suggestion that the market should move.  Let's face it, it has shrunk to the state that some space taken up by a pub would be an advantage.
b) Competition is the name of the game - should we stop any new retail business opening or an existing one expanding in order to protect less efficient competitors?
c) see b)
d) I would assume that the food would be covered during transit - though I would agree that is seems more sensible to have pubs/restaurants in the Market Place using the outside space rather than one from Bartholomew Street.
e) An interesting question - would the current pub premises licence cover an area in the Market Place?

Another question I would like the answer to - how much rent would the Snooty Fox pay to NTC or WBC for use of the space?

Quoted from 78

Those are the uses. It looks far better there now, empty , than it did full of parked cars.

So £800,000 spent for occasional use of the area! Assuming the charter market is there twice a week, farmers market twice a month, speciality markets every few months and a few special events, this means that it is only in use 11 days out of 28. The rest of the time it is empty.
The way the charter market looks now, it the area may be less used in the future.
My understanding of the Vision is that this is the "cultural quarter". Its a pity that there is no encouragement for this to happen by providing or allowing some permanent focus. Refusing planning permission for hospitality again means that it will continue to empty (apart from a few benchesand the markets).
Whilst I don't agree that pedestrianising the area was correct, now that its done the town should encourage more use of it.

Quoted from 78

I see that the application was turned down.

Shame, would have been a good experiment.

Quoted from user23.3

We haven't always had Farmers Markets, French Markets, Italian Markets, Christmas Markets...

I was just responding to the question though, that's it's main use.

Personally I think holding the markets in a lovely piazza rather than a car park is much better.

When has Newbury had a Christmas Market?

Quoted from Bartholomew

When has Newbury had a Christmas Market?

Quite a long time ago and it was held in Northbrook St  

Quoted from Bartholomew

So £800,000 spent for occasional use of the area! Assuming the charter market is there twice a week, farmers market twice a month, speciality markets every few months and a few special events, this means that it is only in use 11 days out of 28. The rest of the time it is empty.
The way the charter market looks now, it the area may be less used in the future.
My understanding of the Vision is that this is the "cultural quarter". Its a pity that there is no encouragement for this to happen by providing or allowing some permanent focus. Refusing planning permission for hospitality again means that it will continue to empty (apart from a few benchesand the markets).
Whilst I don't agree that pedestrianising the area was correct, now that its done the town should encourage more use of it.

It might be empty but it looks better than it did when it was full of cars, IMHO. A car park isn't a fitting use for the centre of the town.

Quoted from 78

It might be empty but it looks better than it did when it was full of cars, IMHO. A car park isn't a fitting use for the centre of the town.

So it doesn't concern you that it cost a thick end of £1,000,000.00, so long as it looks nice?

Looks are subjective, but to me it looks over kill.  As if there was a job lot of paving that was needed to have get rid of.  For me, it was a BIG waste of money by people who seemingly didn't know what to do with the space available.

It suggests to me the TCP and in part WBC, had more money available than sense.

It is also worth noting that the paving was put down only a few years after spending another fortune laying York stone pavements etc.

Quoted from Greenham Common

So it doesn't concern you that it cost a thick end of £1,000,000.00, so long as it looks nice?

Looks are subjective, but to me it looks over kill.  As if there was a job lot of paving that was needed to have get rid of.  For me, it was a BIG waste of money by people who seemingly didn't know what to do with the space available.

It suggests to me the TCP and in part WBC, had more money available than sense.

I don't really care about the cost. It could be that the council needed to spend spend spend to avoid missing out on funds from central government.

Quoted from 78

I don't really care about the cost.

That explains a lot.

Quoted from 78

It could be that the council needed to spend spend spend to avoid missing out on funds from central government.

Meanwhile, there were plenty of roads in the outlying areas that were neglected and in need of attention.

Quoted from Greenham Common

That explains a lot.

Meanwhile, there were plenty of roads in the outlying areas that were neglected and in need of attention.

nice to see where your priorities lie.

Quoted from 78

nice to see where your priorities lie.

Yes, practicality over vanity any day of the week.

Quoted from Greenham Common

It suggests to me the TCP and in part WBC, had more money available than sense.

There seems to be a trend on these forums that suggests that theTCP are involved in deciding how and where the taxpayers money is spent and are also involved in the finances. This is not the case even though some of the vision group take part and are members of the TCP. Now that the minutes are in the public domain, that may become clearer.

Quoted from brian

There seems to be a trend on these forums that suggests that theTCP are involved in deciding how and where the taxpayers money is spent

By being advisory, they are 'involved' in deciding how and where the taxpayers money is spent, but I accept that they don't determine where money is spent.  Having said that, the New Greenham Common Trust, a TCP member, used money from their coffers to finance the pavilion proposal.  So while it wasn't strictly tax payers money, it was money intended to finance municipal projects.

Quoted from brian

There seems to be a trend on these forums that suggests that theTCP are involved in deciding how and where the taxpayers money is spent and are also involved in the finances. This is not the case even though some of the vision group take part and are members of the TCP. Now that the minutes are in the public domain, that may become clearer.

The TCP must be influenced by the fact that some of the TCP members are decision makers on other committees and councils and these bodies also provide some of the finances.

The minutes certainly haven't made it clearer but have highlighted who are making these decisions and what they are.  

Quoted from Greenham Common

By being advisory, they are 'involved' in deciding how and where the taxpayers money is spent, but I accept that they don't determine where money is spent.  Having said that, the New Greenham Common Trust, a TCP member, used money from their coffers to finance the pavilion proposal.  So while it wasn't strictly tax payers money, it was money intended to finance municipal projects.

You need to remember that New Greenham Trust (are they really a TCP member?) have a vested interest in getting the pavillion built, They want to redevelop the site of New Greenham Arts after they move to the pavilion.

Quoted from Greenham Common

By being advisory, they are 'involved' in deciding how and where the taxpayers money is spent, but I accept that they don't determine where money is spent.  Having said that, the New Greenham Common Trust, a TCP member, used money from their coffers to finance the pavilion proposal.  So while it wasn't strictly tax payers money, it was money intended to finance municipal projects.

As yet, no one's been able to highlight a TCP proposal that wasn't taken up by WBC.

Quoted from user23.3

As yet, no one's been able to highlight a TCP proposal that wasn't taken up by WBC.

Neither has anyone been able to highlight a TCP proposal that was taken up by WBC.

Quoted from brian

Neither has anyone been able to highlight a TCP proposal that was taken up by WBC.

Or a TCP proposal.

Quoted from brian

Neither has anyone been able to highlight a TCP proposal that was taken up by WBC.

Quoted from blackdog

Or a TCP proposal.

Isn't the evidence around us?  Since the TCP and its collaboration with WBC was rather secretive, it would be difficult to see what has been proposed.