I am sure that our memories don't go back that far, but this seemed to be the most obvious place for this request:
Sir,
I am writing Vol 2 of my biography of Sir Thomas Fairfax. I know that he brought the army to Newbury on 27 April 1646. The author Tony MacLachlan recently described him as "travelling in semi-Regal style".
My question is a simple one; can you identify a 'semi-regal' house where he might have stayed?Please?
It is unlikely that he would have stayed over in a pub so that doesn't leave many locations.
Shaw House seems to be the only "regal" abode as most of the houses in Donnington had been pretty well knocked about during the civil war that was still running its course. The town of Newbury was between the two marauding armies and it was not uncommon for the local farmers livestock to be stolen by one army, bought back only to be stolen again by the other side. Jack o' Newbury's house in town was probably by this time fairly well run down and would not be considered regal even though in the past many royal personages had been entertained there. Donnington Castle was really a fortified house and was probably still standing in 1646, a little more complete than we see it today, so that could also have been used as a stopping off point. Failing that, Sandleford Priory was a royal stop off in earlier days. Who knows, there's a good pub close by. There was a fairly prestigious house at Benham-Valence in about 1630 although not the house we know today as that was built in about 1770. There must also have been some sort of house in Hamstead Park (Hamstead Marshall) It was certainly there in 1620 and was burned down in 1720 or there abouts. If one travels a little further west, the Littlecote House was also standing in all its glory at that time, built in the sixteenth century.
The house in Hampstead Park was more of a palace than a country house - built for a queen (Elizabeth of Bohemia, sister of Charles I). Couldn't really classify it as semi-regal - unless you'd classify Hampton Court as semi-regal. I doubt that Fairfax would have been very welcome either.
Nor would he be welcome at Shaw House - not that that would necessarily stop him - an army can be very persuasive. There must have been other country houses of substance - the Winchcombe's at Bucklebury for a start. Closer to town Sandleford and Donnington Priories are possibilites but other visitors, including royalty stayed in local tradesmen's houses (eg Charles I at Gabriel Cox's house prior to the 1st Battle) - perhaps that would have suited Fairfax. There are also the inns, some of which were probably pretty good, more than 'above a pub'.
I am sure that our memories don't go back that far, but this seemed to be the most obvious place for this request:
Sir,
I am writing Vol 2 of my biography of Sir Thomas Fairfax. I know that he brought the army to Newbury on 27 April 1646. The author Tony MacLachlan recently described him as "travelling in semi-Regal style".
My question is a simple one; can you identify a 'semi-regal' house where he might have stayed?Please?
Why not write to Tony MacLachlan (via his publisher maybe) and ask him where he got his information from. Seems strange that the guy who developed the New Model Army would travel that way though. (dissention in the ranks etc...) Wasn't Waller in charge of the Army though?
Might also be an idea to ask what 'semi-Regal style' means.
Why do people keep on about a pub; there was no mention of one in the original posting.
Any large house would have had its own supply of wine and ale, and in many cases its own brewery, so there was no need for the Lord General of the New Model Army to nip out to an alehouse for a drink.
Why do people keep on about a pub; there was no mention of one in the original posting.
Any large house would have had its own supply of wine and ale, and in many cases its own brewery, so there was no need for the Lord General of the New Model Army to nip out to an alehouse for a drink.
Most people - and Fairfax certainly doesn't count in that category - would stay at an alehouse or an inn. Even in the 1640s Newbury had a good number of inns where your average gentry would stay when travelling through - I see no real reason for Fairfax not to stay at an inn.
Why not write to Tony MacLachlan (via his publisher maybe) and ask him where he got his information from. Seems strange that the guy who developed the New Model Army would travel that way though. (dissention in the ranks etc...)
I take it you refer to the term 'semi-regal' - Fairfax was the son of an Lord and probably well used to life at court etc., by 1646 the war was pretty much over so he would be able to travel in bit more style knowing that he was not likely to face any force that could offer more than a token resistance.
27 April was about the time that Donnington Castle surrendered - his arrival may well have brought that on. I guess Shaw House would be his obvious billet while besieging the castle.
27 April was about the time that Donnington Castle surrendered - his arrival may well have brought that on. I guess Shaw House would be his obvious billet while besieging the castle.
No no no. (sorry to be so pendantic)
The original post says April 1646 (quite specifically). Donnington Castle was relieved by the King October/November 1644. (and that was the second battle of Newbury). (The first being September 1643)
The only way Fairfax could have been here leading the NMA in 1646 was if he was on his way down to the West Country (which resulted in the eventual siege of Exeter.)
Not in 1646 - he commanded one of Parliament's armies 1642-1645. Fairfax commanded the lot from 1645.
It was called the 'New Model Army' and in June 1646, he led that army into Oxford, which was the headquarters of the Royalist army after being in Truro in March 1646 so he could well have been in the Newbury area but it certainly took a long time to get to Oxford if the April date is correct.
The original post says April 1646 (quite specifically). Donnington Castle was relieved by the King October/November 1644. (and that was the second battle of Newbury). (The first being September 1643)
The only way Fairfax could have been here leading the NMA in 1646 was if he was on his way down to the West Country (which resulted in the eventual siege of Exeter.)
Donnington Castle was relieved by the King in 1644 - while Fairfax was up north having recently given Rupert a pasting at Marston Moor.
18 months later the castle was in tatters having been seriously bombarded. Fairfax had by this time been appointed as commander in chief of the Parliamentary forces - the New Model Army. In 1645 the New Model annihilated the King's main army at Naseby and all that remained was the mopping up. Fairfax took the surrender of the Royalists in the west in March 1646 and headed for Oxford, the King's capital. If he got here in late April he was actually too late for the siege as the Castle surrendered on 1 April.
Most people - and Fairfax certainly doesn't count in that category - would stay at an alehouse or an inn. Even in the 1640s Newbury had a good number of inns where your average gentry would stay when travelling through - I see no real reason for Fairfax not to stay at an inn.
Agreed; in those days there was a great deal of difference between a large and well-appointed inn, with accommodation and food, and a simple alehouse. These days they are all lumped under the title of 'pub'.
What about the former Castle Inn in the Old Bath Road? Was that in existence in 1646?
Sorry, I got the impression you were a Local...my mistake!
I think you mean Beenham House near Theale, that was my confusion. I suspect that it is a little too far East to have been on the route from the West Country to Oxford where he was travelling with the New Model Army to get one of the last Royalist pockets to surrender. It, Beenham, was certainly visited by the Roundhead soldiers during both the first and second battles of Newbury however.
I think you mean Beenham House near Theale, that was my confusion. I suspect that it is a little too far East to have been on the route from the West Country to Oxford where he was travelling with the New Model Army to get one of the last Royalist pockets to surrender. It, Beenham, was certainly visited by the Roundhead soldiers during both the first and second battles of Newbury however.
No! I meant Benham House....where my mother and father worked for Toby Sutton!
They offered him Benham Valence, built on the remains of Benham Manor, and in the grounds of Benham Park. But he insists that there's a Benham House somewhere.
Very true, but I suspect what we have here is 'local yokels' calling it by the wrong name. "Oh look it's a house in Benham Park..... it must be known as Benham House", when in fact, it's actual name was Benham Valence. (see links). It was, howerver, sold as the 'Mansion House' to Norsk Data. It's present occupants (2e2) also have the name 'The Mansion House' on their letter headings. (but that is to differentiate it from the buildings / companies/ workshops outback)
Yep, FF, that was the rebuilt one. (although I have to say the postcard looks nowt like what's standing there today) Assuming we accept that what was written in the London Gazette was totally accurate, we still seem to be at an impasse as to what existed on the spot or what it would have been called in 1646 though.
If the Wiki picture is the current manor house then there is a strong similarity to the one in the postcard.
Benham Place, recently called Benham Valence, is the seat of Sir Richard Sutton, bart., Speen House is the residence of the Rev. J. Lomax Gibbs, and there are many other houses of considerable size in the parish.
There is a well about 200 yards above the church, called 'Our Lady's Well,' whose waters are supposed to possess certain healing qualities. (fn. 6) In a 17thcentury conveyance there is mention of 'Weeping Cross closes, near the Weeping Cross, in the parish of Speen. (fn. 7)
In 1825 a skull, together with flint implements, was found in the peat at Benham Marsh, and in 1830 another skull was found there, opposite to Benham House. (fn. A dug-out canoe was found at Bagnor. (fn. 9)
The one in the postcard is deffo 'L' shaped with the wrong number of floors above the main columns compared to the single non-L shaped building in the wiki link.
Very true, but I suspect what we have here is 'local yokels' calling it by the wrong name. "Oh look it's a house in Benham Park..... it must be known as Benham House", when in fact, it's actual name was Benham Valence. (see links). It was, howerver, sold as the 'Mansion House' to Norsk Data. It's present occupants (2e2) also have the name 'The Mansion House' on their letter headings. (but that is to differentiate it from the buildings / companies/ workshops outback)
Threep.
You are an education in itself-I take my hat off to you...Creepwood! And how long have you been in the area, you seem to know very little about it!
Well, I sometimes think you need it. It was you who struggled with the 24 hour clock, the correct use of English, the works of Tennessee Williams, the ability to quote correctly, and Bertie Wooster after all. Is it not you that always resorts to swearing and name-calling when you start to lose your arguments? How many posts have you had deleted for those reasons? Too many methinks.
But to answer your point,
Are you saying it wasn't sold to Norsk Data as 'The Mansion House' then? Are you saying 2e2 don't call it the same on their letter heading. Are you saying there aren't diifferent companies round the back? Are you saying it's correct name is not Benham Valence? Which part is wrong?
Perhaps you'd like to answer the question posed to you by both Brian and Greenham Common now?
I know you're 'getting old' Threep but that's a bit unfair. Who's to say it wasn't non 'local yokels' who started calling it the Mansion House? I think it's a reasonable assumption don't you? After all, Norsk Data and 2e2 are very recent occupants given it's age. The correct name now is Benham Valance but we know for sure it is not the original name
Well, I sometimes think you need it. It was you who struggled with the 24 hour clock, the correct use of English, the works of Tennessee Williams, the ability to quote correctly, and Bertie Wooster after all. Is it not you that always resorts to swearing and name-calling when you start to lose your arguments? How many posts have you had deleted for those reasons? Too many methinks.
Pip Pip!
Threep.
Thanks for that..Still can't handle the Pip Pip though.. Don't know where the above came from, you are obviously getting me confused with another. Anyway, to answer your question, as I stated before, my Mother and Father worked on The Sutton Estate for Toby Sutton at 'Benham House, but I don't have to justify myself to you as you well know..but please carry on in the manner you have become accustomed! I expect some people find it entertaining
The correct name now is Benham Valance but we know for sure it is not the original name
That's not quite right it was built in the Benham Estate by the Valance family, hence Benham-Valence House. In the same way, the Hampstead Estate was settled by the Marshall family. Hampstead-Marshall..
Dodgy, you keep going on about Benham House. Where exactly is that building if it is not the Valence/Norsk data building please let us know and that will settle the discussion.
Maybe it was another house in the grounds. It's all very confusing because it definitely states in numerous places that it was called Benham Valance in later years. Maybe dodgy can put us all out of our misery and say exactly where his family went to work
“ The Margrane of Ansph begs leave to inform the commanding officer of the B.P.C. that two young officers forc’d their way thro’ the gate, telling the woman that wanted to deter them that they were going to Benham House, and meeting the Marne who asked them if they were going there, they answered they thought the road was publick, she assured them it was not, but they proceeded through. The Marne hopes (whatever these young men may be) they ought to be informed they have behaved very unlike gentlemen, and of course not in the least like officers.”
King Henry lll was very fond of jousting tournaments and in 1248 he held a large tournament somewhere in Newbury. One of the ypunger half brothers of the king, William de Valence was a contestant who because of his youth and inexperience took a pretty severe beating. Two years later in 1250, the manor, (which actually means estate rather than a house as we know it today) was given to William de Valence by King Henry lll and it was then named at that time Benham-Valence.
Hamstead Park (Hamstead Marshall) had a Tudor building in it as well as three castle “mottes”. The Parliamentarian army were there during the first battle of Newbury and are reputed to have trashed the house/area. In 1663 Construction was started on a house in the German style. It was eventually completed but burned down in 1718 and although there were plans to rebuild, this never happened There is a large hunting lodge, Hamstead Lodge, existing in the park which was expanded in 1740. There is no information as far as I know about the house that was there in 1646 but as the Parliamentarians had probably ruined it, Fairfax might have given it a wide berth. The Hunting Lodge could have been an option.
All these locations are just Fairfax guesswork as is Benham-Valence so, no provenance there as they say.
Just for the sake of completeness regarding the house in Benham Park, it was as we said before originally called Benham-Valence as the gifted manor to the Valence family and it was they who built the original house which was not surprisingly called Benham-Valence house. This structure was burned to the ground and rebuilt as Benham-Valence house by the Cravens in 1775. The picture which FF discovered is in fact shown from the East side of the house. It was probably the left hand block that Dodgy was born/lived in but it was demolished in the fifties because of lack of maintenance and a badly decaying structure. So she was talking about the same house all along as the name did get shortened to Benham House. The main house was much modified in Victorian times and the South facing entrance seen was replaced with a much grander set of columns which we see today. I believe the house was virtually unoccupied from the late thirties onwards apart from a short association with the Americans during the Second World War. As we know, it was renovated for Norsk Data and it comes complete with its own ghostly appararition in the form of a woman with a mop cap and a child. So, Dodgy after a bit of investigation, we're talking about the same building.
I am sure that our memories don't go back that far, but this seemed to be the most obvious place for this request:
Sir,
I am writing Vol 2 of my biography of Sir Thomas Fairfax. I know that he brought the army to Newbury on 27 April 1646. The author Tony MacLachlan recently described him as "travelling in semi-Regal style".
My question is a simple one; can you identify a 'semi-regal' house where he might have stayed?Please?
Yes, the name was 'BENHAM HOUSE'-boy did I struggle to get that one out! I never did say I was born/lived there, but that my Mother and Father both worked at 'BENHAM HOUSE' for Toby Sutton.. My father was a chaufeur and my mother a house maid.. So there...!!! Plopity plop!
Yes you do otherwise you wouldn't bother posting. It's damn anyway
You spell it how you were told and I'll spell it the way I want..OK! I must admit I am slightly bothered over everyone's reference to the 'Internet', as if that's the be all and end all..Oh bugger, what am I saying, I'm actually using it now..sod it I am what you think..go on enjoy yourselves........ BENHAM HOUSE!! End of...bring it on...wicked..absolutely... sides...fries...cool..and all those other crap words added to our repertoire (s'pect I spelt that wrong too!)
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Male
A dug-out canoe was found at Bagnor. (fn. 9)
Now, is it where Sir Thomas Fairfax stayed? 
